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January 3, 2009

Gaza With The Sound Off

Rafah Window.jpg

Clearly, the media-scape represents a vital, if not decisive front in contemporary warfare.

To the extent this image of a Palestinian looking out the window in Gaza’s Rafah refugee camp evokes a television screen, the intimation is that Israel has perceptually lost this war as a result of its intensive bombing campaign.

From today’s NYT slideshow: Israeli Troops Move Into Gaza

(image: Eyad Baba/Associated Press. January 3, 2008)

  • George Hickey

    Here’s a slide show from Seattle. 1-3-09
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/gphickey/

  • http://profile.typepad.com/6p010536554b68970c/ DW

    I’m just sick of it. I’ve seen this show my entire life now. The Israelis just continue to create more enemies. Just great. How does this help them, really?

  • Gloria

    If the New York Times was the official propaganda outlet for The Jewish State how would it be different? Bag it, bag and show photos from another source. Try IMEU.Net.

  • jtfromBC

    just another, anonymous faceless Palestinian,
    will he survives the ongoing land invasion ?

  • lytom

    What does the viewer see in the ruins? Memories?
    Whole families disappearing? Does he still hear children laughing or the last bombing sound and sheer terror in survivors? Children screaming for parents that turned to bloody mass with dust?
    Does he see any kind of future or even a possible survival?
    Is he left with any hope for justice? or is there only hate left in him?
    Does he think that maybe this picture will turn the world around and that maybe there will be help without any preconditions of more dead?
    Does he believe the occupation will end some day and there will be peace?
    Nothing will erase that picture!
    Vae victis!
    The promises of money from EU are too late, where are the deeds?

  • cenoxo

    Here’s a slide show from Seattle. 1-3-09
    http://www.flickr.com/photos/gphickey/

    Filling in the blank.

  • http://www.agrippinaminor.com/wp/ Wayne

    Photojournalists who are kept away from the action can show us nothing.
    Remember how the Abu Ghraib story broke? It wasn’t via the official press. Photojournalists who are “embedded” (“in bed with”?) the military cannot be trusted, regardless of how earnest and well-intentioned they might be. First, they go only where the military wants them to go, and see only what the military wants them to see. Second, they frequently lose objectivity and identify with the military. (If the “Stockholm syndrome” manifests itself in cases of kidnapping or hostage-taking, then surely a version of the same phenomenon will develop among embedded journalists.)
    Images provided by the military itself should not be trusted at all. They might be *accurate*, but they will hardly ever be *true*.
    So what’s left? Professionals who manage to avoid official constraint should be cherished and protected. And citizen-journalists from among all parties to a conflict should be cultivated and (after due vetting) published.

  • kate

    I’m sick of this anti-Israel propaganda.
    Where were you in the last 8 years of missile attacks on Israel? You should be ashamed.

  • Lightkeeper

    And Kate where were you during the last 8 years when close to 5,000 Palestinians were being killed, most silently and without any intrusive media spotlights? Yes, those in Sderot lived in fear. So did the 1.5 million in Gaza. They lived with more than just fear – they lived with a brutal military occupation, unending drones above their heads, the closure of their fishing ports, casual military incursions, casual bombings of whole families, et cetera et cetera.
    I posted this (late) on the Israeli snuff film post:
    I am unbelievably sick of the righteousness and vehemency on display in both sides’ defense of their actions. I think it is extremely unhelpful and leads ultimately to a deadlock from which it seems we can never (re)emerge.
    A lot of my Jewish friends feel threatened even today – even in places like Europe or Canada – about their existence as Jews in the world. I know that the Holocaust must loom large in their memories, but I think there is something…almost static about their fears; like they cannot see how much the world has changed since WWII. Of course, there is no denying that anti-semitism still exists – but there is also no denying that it is no longer possible to discriminate against Jews in the ways it was prior to the Holocaust. Tony Judt stated it best in his essay ‘The ‘Problem of Evil’ in Postwar Europe’:
    ‘Imagine the following exercise: Would you feel safe, accepted, welcome today as a Muslim or an “illegal immigrant” in the US? As a “Paki” in parts of England? A Moroccan in Holland? A beur in France? A black in Switzerland? An “alien” in Denmark? A Romanian in Italy? A Gypsy anywhere in Europe? Or would you not feel safer, more integrated, more accepted as a Jew? I think we all know the answer. In many of these countries—Holland, France, the US, not to mention Germany—the local Jewish minority is prominently represented in business, the media, and the arts. In none of them are Jews stigmatized, threatened, or excluded.’
    This is one of the reasons why people who criticize Israel’s actions find it hard to be alarmed by Ahmedinijad’s psychotic pronouncements or Hamas refusal to recognize Israel. Not just because, as cenoxo points out, this conflict seems more and more like one between David and Goliath, but also because we know that we could never let what happened to the Jews in 1941 happen to them again in 2009. Not just because Israel is one of the most powerful militaries in the world with an unknown number of nuclear missiles, but because we know that a puny militant group like Hamas can in no way threaten Israel’s exist – no matter how much it may claim otherwise.
    Having said all this, one of the things I am wary of is the use of the Holocaust to justify Israel’s actions. The implicit idea here is that Israel must be committing such atrocities that only the shroud of the most evil crime ever committed – the Holocaust – can justify its actions. This, to me, is no longer a reasonable defense of Israel’s position vis a vis the Palestinians. If I was threatened every single day, locked up without reason, denied access to my generational home and not allowed to till my own olive groves – why would I recognize such a state? So while I can understand how awful it is that Hamas refuses to recognize Israel, there is a rhyme and reason why it refuses to do so. And in the long run, it probably will not matter. This is just bluster and posture on Hamas’ part – it has no bearing on the possibilities of the future. Israel cannot be destroyed (thank God).
    However, it becomes more and more apparent every day that Palestine, its memory, its land, its people, can be destroyed. Not only ‘can be’ but are being destroyed. While there is something latently anti-semitic in comparing the IDF’s actions to those committed by the Nazi, it is very useful to remember that Holocausts can (and have) happened again. I will leave with Judt, again:
    ‘And so, if we teach the history of World War II above all—and sometimes uniquely—through the prism of the Holocaust, we may not always be teaching good history. It is hard for us to accept that the Holocaust occupies a more important role in our own lives than it did in the wartime experience of occupied lands. But if we wish to grasp the true significance of evil—what Hannah Arendt intended by calling it “banal”—then we must remember that what is truly awful about the destruction of the Jews is not that it mattered so much but that it mattered so little.’
    I urge everyone interested in this conflict to read this lecture. It is one of the most eye-opening ones I have ever read: (http://www.nybooks.com/articles/21031)

  • arty

    “…citizen-journalists from among all parties to a conflict should be cultivated and (after due vetting) published.”
    Are you referring to the usual meaning of citizen-journalist, “someone I agree with?” How do “we” go about cultivating them? Do “we” get to do the vetting? And do “we” then get to say where such reports are published?
    Sounds like democracy to me. Who among “us” gets to be Journalism Czar?

  • Lightkeeper

    In terms of the picture, I am always surprised by the Bag’s emphasis on Israel losing the media war, as if this were a cold and calculated affair meant only for the viewing pleasures of the Western world. I know that in this day and age the media decides who is the hero and who the villain, but that narrative itself is self-defeating. Israel is only losing the ‘media battle’ because – like the US in Iraq – it is carrying out a war of aggression against mostly innocent civilians. Of course its going to look bad – even with the sound turned on.

  • cenoxo

    Gaza With The Sound Off
    Very thoughtful of photographer Eyad Baba to leave a silhouette where we can paste in our chosen Talking Head — CNN, Fox, Bush, Barak, Barack, etc.
    One problem with talking contre-jour heads is that you can’t quite read their lips. Where’s the volume knob again?

  • lytom

    Kate: I’m sick of this anti-Israel propaganda.
    Kate, so you are sick of the propaganda, but blood, dead, occupation, blockade of food, medicine, electricity, water and lack of basic human rights for people in Gaza does not move you or may not seem real enough for you.
    Tell me what will move you?

  • http://www.bagnewsnotes.com Michael (The BAG)

    Lightkeeper,
    I appreciate your critique and/but I’m wondering what thoughts/suggestions you have to expand the focus here from (simply) a view of the (supposedly self-defeating) Western visual media narrative?

  • http://www.searchformajorplagge.com Michaeldg

    The Palestinians have been fighting Israel for sixty years and at least since 1967 have been under increasingly harsh occupation. Why after Israel unilaterally evacuated Gaza in 2005 did the Palestinians immediately move to continue their struggle? Couldn’t they have tried building an economy- farming, commerce, schools, infrastructure- there was a great opportunity. Since sixty years of armed struggle have gotten them nothing but death and destruction, perhaps, just once, they might try peace.
    My question, which I have posed several times on this blog but have never heard an answer from those who support the Palestinian cause is: what is your vision for the 5 million Jews who currently live in Israel after the Occupation ends? I have never heard Hamas or Hezbollah enunciate their vision other than to “destroy the Zionist Entity”. So is your/their vision another genocide? What exactly are you working toward?

  • mse

    Lost this “war”? To quote Chris Hedges in Truthdig:
    “A war? Israel uses sophisticated attack jets and naval vessels to bomb densely crowded refugee camps and slums, to attack a population that has no air force, no air defense, no navy, no heavy weapons, no artillery units, no mechanized armor, no command and control, no army, and calls it a war. It is not a war. It is murder.”
    http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/20081229_party_to_murder/

  • Lightkeeper

    Well Michael, I come to this site because it has brilliantly deconstructed the fallacies in our views on Iraq, the US elections, even cultural issues etc., and it has done so through a usually brilliant analysis of images that disrupts the dominant/hegemonic narrative. I think in the case of Israel/Palestine some divergence from the mainstream narrative is necessary to shed light on the fallacies of that narrative – just like you have done in regards to so many other issues on this blog.
    I suppose one thing would be to stop pretending like the IDF’s public announcements are factual recordings of the events going on in the occupied territories. We rarely take the US military’s spokeswhoring at face value, I don’t know why we should do the same for the Israeli military. Also, perhaps we could analyse images that underline the human cost of this conflict as opposed to the material damages?
    Thank you for responding btw. I know how sensitive this issue is on all sides, and I am trying my best to keep a level tone.
    MichaelDG, I’m slightly confused by your question. What will happen to them after the occupation ends is they will continue to live in the land allotted to them in 1948. Unfortunately, the continued expansion and construction of settlements in the West Bank makes it almost impossible to have a Palestinian state there without the forcible removal of hundreds of thousands of settlers. But nobody is asking Israel to be driven to the sea. Nobody is saying Israel has no right to exist. Israel has no right to occupy the remaining 22% of Palestine that was given to the Palestinians when Israel was created; land which Israel has been occupying now for 41 years. Israel IS NOT THREATENED. Israel is the Middle East’s superpower.
    This idea that Israel gave up the Gaza Strip is the worst illusion. According to Human Rights Watch: ‘under international law, the test for determining whether an occupation exists is effective control by a hostile army, not the positioning of troops. Whether the Israeli army is inside Gaza or redeployed around its periphery and restricting entrance and exit, it remains in control.’ This idea that now the test for the Palestinians is whether or not they can create a vibrant Dubai or Singapore rests on a refusal to admit that the Gaza strip is still occupied – its air, its sea, its borders. When even fuel for electricity is not allowed in – when even hospitals must run on generators – how can Hamas build a vibrant economy in such a setting?

  • Lightkeeper

    Oh, I forgot to mention the immediate sanctioning of Hamas when it was elected, the cutting off of aid from the EU & the US & Canada, the harsh collective punishment, the withholding of even civil servant salaries. And…Hamas is responsible for not building a vibrant economy?

  • http://www.bagnewsnotes.com Michael (The BAG)

    Lightkeeper,
    If you don’t mind my pushing the point, and to open the question to others, I welcome suggestions on how to enrich, and open up more facets, in The BAG’s visual coverage of the Gaza situation. Above, you said:
    I suppose one thing would be to stop pretending like the IDF’s public announcements are factual recordings of the events going on in the occupied territories. We rarely take the US military’s spokeswhoring at face value, I don’t know why we should do the same for the Israeli military.
    I thought the main point of the IDF/snuff post was to expose the IDF’s promotion of that video as an egregious propaganda act. Not to put too much emphasis on that one example, though, I welcome all suggestions — especially with specific (linked) examples — on the ME situation, or any other. I can always be reached, by the way, at openbag AT bagnews DOT COM.

  • jtfromBC

    I observe with astonishment the corporate media repeating ad nauseum that 25% of casualties are women and children leaving the impression that the other 75% are TERRORISTS ~
    UN Complicity in Israel’s Massacre in Gaza
    “..Now, senior UN officials, excluding the particularly courageous and principled UN Special Rapporteur for human rights in the occupied Palestinian territory, Richard Falk, and a few others, are only focusing on “women and children” victims of the massacre, implying, even if unintentionally, that all Palestinian men in Gaza are fair game for the Israeli killing machine. The tens of Palestinian civilian policemen that were butchered in the opening hours of the massive Israeli attack by dozens of fighter jets were, thus, conveniently dismissed by such irresponsible UN figures of casualties as Hamas “fighters,” more or less, that may be targeted with impunity. This is not to mention the scores of male teachers, doctors, workers, farmers and unemployed who were killed by Israel’s indiscriminate bombing in their workplaces, public offices, homes or streets and were not accounted for as civilian victims of Israel’s belligerent murder spree.
    Above everything else, this UN discourse not only reduces close to half a million Palestinian men in that wretched, tormented and occupied coastal strip to “militants,” radical “fighters,” or whatever other nouns in currency nowadays in the astoundingly, but characteristically, biased western media coverage of the Israel “war crimes and crimes against humanity” in Gaza, as some international law experts have described them; it also treats them as already condemned criminals that deserve the capital punishment Israel has meted out on them. I am not an expert on the history of the UN, but I suspect this sets a new low, a precedent in dehumanizing an entire adult male population in a region of “conflict,” thereby justifying their fatal targeting or, at least, silently condoning it. But this should surprise no one as the same UN leaders have for 18 months watched in eerie silence or even indirectly justified, one way or another, Israel’s siege of Gaza which was described by Falk as a “prelude to genocide” and compared by him to Nazi crimes…”
    jnoubiyeh.blogspot.com/2009/01/un-complicity-in-israels-massacre-in.html

  • http://www.bizimlesohbet.com sohbet

    If you don’t mind my pushing the point, and to open the question to others, I welcome suggestions on how to enrich, and open up more facets, in The BAG’s visual coverage of the Gaza situation. Above, you said:

  • http://www.searchformajorplagge.com Michaeldg

    JtfromBC describes the “Israeli killing machine” as indiscriminately targeting all males and quotes Falk who says that “Israel’s siege of Gaza which was described by Falk as a “prelude to genocide” and compared by him to Nazi crimes…”
    Describing what is going on in Gaza as a genocidal rampage comparable to the Nazis displays a shocking ignorance of what genocide is, or what a modern army is capable of doing to civilians if it’s intention is to commit genocide. Outside of Kiev at the ravine of Babi Yar, German SS troops killed 33,771 Jewish civilians in two days. When the Nazis met resistance in the Warsaw Ghetto after starving and murdering 400,000 Jews over two years, they burned every building to the ground and killed 56,065 Jews in four days. This is what happens when a modern army with genocidal intent uses the full force of weapons intentionally against unarmed civilians. Beyond genocidal intentions, modern military power has been used against civilian targets in war with horrific consequences. When the US bombed Tokyo we burned 100,000 Japanese civilians in one night, when the British bombed Dresden they burned 40,000 German civilians to death in one night. So if the Israeli military used their massive power against 1.5 million Gazans indiscriminately in their effort to stop rocket attacks aimed at their civilians, there would be thousands or tens of thousands of dead instead of 460. We can argue about whether Israel should use any kind of military solution against “terrorists” or “resistance fighters” imbedded in the midst of civilians, but the attacks are certainly not indiscriminate, nor are they genocidal. To continue to repeat these inflammatory terms such as “Nazi Like” or “genocide” is in my mind either indicative of ignorance or an ideologically motivated twisting of history.

  • lytom

    Michaeldg @ Jan 04, 2009 at 11:53 AM
    Vision???
    “Imagine, there’s no….” is one vision, but that vision is unreal.
    Reality is different. Take a look at the defeated nations/cities throughout the history. Some perished completely, some survived because the “big powers” – victors of the time thought it would be convenient for the situation in the area to keep them in existence.
    I wonder why you are asking about my vision or that of Hamas…etc…
    Gaza is occupied and has been for long time and I cannot find any reason to justify the suffering the people of Gaza are been put through…because of some other thing you call “vision”.
    I am on the side of the people, who are in terrible situation with the world letting them die slowly, violently and without justice! They are in struggle for survival!

  • jtfromBC

    JtfromBC describes the “Israeli killing machine”
    jtfromBC does not say this, all he says is: I observe with astonishment the corporate media repeating ad nauseum that 25% of casualties are women and children leaving the impression that the other 75% are TERRORISTS ~
    I am familiar with your brief sketch of history and probably would not have used certain terms which Falk feels confident in using. Perhaps he is a self hating Jew or suffering from some mental illness, I just don’t know.
    Before being treated as a common criminal and thrown out of Israel while on UN buisness recently, I found this article written 18 months ago rather foretelling.
    Slouching toward a Palestinian Holocaust. Richard Falk June 29 2007
    “..it is especially painful for me, as an American Jew, to feel compelled to portray the ongoing and intensifying abuse of the Palestinian people by Israel through a reliance on such an inflammatory metaphor as ‘holocaust.’ The word is derived from the Greek holos (meaning ‘completely’) and kaustos (meaning ‘burnt’), and was used in ancient Greece to refer to the complete burning of a sacrificial offering to a divinity. Because such a background implies a religious undertaking, there is some inclination in Jewish literature to prefer the Hebrew word ‘Shoah’ that can be translated roughly as ‘calamity,’ and was the name given to the 1985 epic nine-hour narration of the Nazi experience by the French filmmaker, Claude Lanzmann. The Germans themselves were more antiseptic in their designation, officially naming their undertaking as the ‘Final Solution of the Jewish Qestion.’ The label is, of course, inaccurate as a variety of non-Jewish identities were also targets of this genocidal assault, including the Roma and Sinti(‘gypsies), Jehovah Witnesses, gays, disabled persons, political opponents…”
    http://www.transnational.org/Area_MiddleEast/2007/Falk_PalestineGenocide

  • fruit_loopz

    JT, nice to see you are still posting!
    I think that Falk is so hyperbolic because he spent time in Gaza, and is thus probably traumatized by what he saw there. But I think MichaelDG is right in that this is not the same as what happened during the Holocaust. We really need to be careful of the words we use because this is such a sensitive issue.
    Sonja Karkar wrote that one of the reasons we can’t see this as ethnic cleansing or genocide is because it has been happening in slow motion. We are so used to erasures of whole populations happening very quickly because of the brutality of what they entail. But in the case of Israel, and Israel often acknowledges, time is on their side. The longer they can continue with the charade of the “peace process” and the hand wringing over no ‘partners for peace,’ the longer they can make life miserable for the Palestinians. The ultimate intention, if one looks at it with a cold and unflinching gaze, is to make the Palestinians leave.
    MichaelDG, I think you should really watch heb2.tv to see the way in which settlers treat the Palestinians. The IDF soldiers refuse to intervene and stand by, letting the settlers occupy Palestinian homes and offices, write lewd graffiti like ‘Arabs to the gas chambers,’ and harass even school children on their way from and to school. This is the daily life for Palestinians. One is left wondering how this is possibly in Israel’s ‘defense’?

  • jtfromBC

    fruit_loopz, traumatized makes a lot of sense, and Sonja Karkar’s analysis is also insightful.
    Interested in the origin of those IDF snuff videos ?
    Interested in marketing, in talking points, in tactics and strategy ?
    Excellent program when going to war with your neighbor is to be found in:
    Why Israel went to war in Gaza, Chris McGreal, Jerusalem. Sunday 4 January 2009
    “..Dan Gillerman, Israel’s ambassador to the UN until a few months ago, was brought in by the Foreign Ministry to help lead the diplomatic and PR campaign. He said that the diplomatic and political groundwork has been under way for months.
    “This was something that was planned long ahead,” he said. “I was recruited by the foreign minister to coordinate Israel’s efforts and I have never seen all parts of a very complex machinery – whether it is the Foreign Ministry, the Defence Ministry, the prime minister’s office, the police or the army – work in such co-ordination, being effective in sending out the message.”
    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/jan/04/israel-gaza-hamas-hidden-agenda

  • George Hickey

    fruit_loopz
    I just watched a couple archive video clips at heb2.tv
    I recommend it for everyone interested in this conflict. I read a Haaratz piece a few weeks ago about when the IDF evacuated settlers from the so called house of peace (also known as the house of contention) the settlers were calling the soldiers Nazis and had pinned yellow stars to their clothing. The Haaratz reporter reported how he and other Jewish journalists saved a large family of Palestinians from being burned alive in their home by masked settlers.
    Here’s a clip showing Israeli settlers throwing rocks at a Palestinian home. The palestinian kid who filmed it was so scared his hand was shaking.
    http://www.heb2.tv/index.php/HEB2/browser/snow_tapes/

  • http://profile.typekey.com/janinsanfran/ janinsanfran

    Just want to note that if I were there, I’d probably be taking the same sorts of pics, rubble and victims framed by the holes blown in buildings, but they’ve become cliched.
    Unfortunately, over the years all images of the destruction wrought by modern militarys in overcrowded cities have come to look pretty much alike. It is very hard to capture visually the unremitting, daily violence that lies behind these events. But it is that undramatic grinding away at Palestinian humanity that hardens support for Hamas. And while the fears of Israelis seem close to insane given the balance of power, those fears must explain the willingness to inflict so much humiliation and pain upon the weak. But all this is so hard to capture visually…

  • http://theforgottenwar.blogspot.com Sergei Andropov

    “A lot of my Jewish friends feel threatened even today – even in places like Europe or Canada – about their existence as Jews in the world. I know that the Holocaust must loom large in their memories, but I think there is something…almost static about their fears; like they cannot see how much the world has changed since WWII. Of course, there is no denying that anti-semitism still exists – but there is also no denying that it is no longer possible to discriminate against Jews in the ways it was prior to the Holocaust.”
    Remember, Zionism predates the Holocaust. If you try to understand the Jewish perspective through its lens, you won’t get very far. Many of the Jews who settled in Israel were fleeing not the Holocaust, but pogroms in Eastern Europe, or other forms of violent anti-Semitism before the War (e.g. the Dreyfus Affair and accompanying riots). Most importantly, many were fleeing from the Arab world. Westerners, especially those who are pro-Palestinian, often have a difficult time understanding just how virulent anti-Semitism is in the Middle East. It’s not just opposition to the State of Israel, but to the Jews themselves. Here is just one of many examples of what is unfortunately quite mainstream. (I realize that MEMRI gets a bad rap, which is why I specifically chose a Persian-language program. You have my assurances that their translation is correct.) And, despite the clear and unmistakable calls for oppression, persecution, genocide, etc., the overwhelming majority of people in the West side with those who want the Jews destroyed. It is easy to see why many Jews might be worried that anti-Zionism is only one step away from anti-Semitism.
    “I observe with astonishment the corporate media repeating ad nauseum that 25% of casualties are women and children leaving the impression that the other 75% are TERRORISTS”
    Is that what they’re saying? I get my news from Al Jazeera, and they’re reporting that the UN is saying that 25% of the dead are civilians, not specifically women and children.

  • http://theforgottenwar.blogspot.com Sergei Andropov

    “Unfortunately, over the years all images of the destruction wrought by modern militarys in overcrowded cities have come to look pretty much alike. It is very hard to capture visually the unremitting, daily violence that lies behind these events. But it is that undramatic grinding away at Palestinian humanity that hardens support for Hamas. And while the fears of Israelis seem close to insane given the balance of power, those fears must explain the willingness to inflict so much humiliation and pain upon the weak. But all this is so hard to capture visually…”
    As it happens, I’ve been working on addressing that very problem. I’ll post my results here if they’re good enough not to be burned and then never spoken of again (which is by no means a given).

  • http://profile.typepad.com/6p010536b2fa33970c/ Lightkeeper

    OK. I posted as fruit_loopz cause I thought something was wrong with my account, just so you know!
    Michael,
    I agree, and I must say I really do appreciate your attempts at opening up and continuing this dialogue. Re: the snuff film, perhaps I am misreading your post, but didn’t you at first assume that Israel was showing us ‘the goods on Hamas’ – simply because the IDF was saying so? I think my point is only that we should be wary of any institutional claims to veracity – not least because the IDF is the occupying military, and thus, has broadly different strategic goals than a mediating or ‘neutral’ party (the same should go for Hamas, of course).
    It would be interesting to see an analysis of a photo from aljazeera or another Arab news site. Not as an instance of ideological brainwashing, but as an example of how such brainwashing is made possible by realities on the ground (realities which I’m sure the Arabs see a lot more of than Western audiences)…

  • http://profile.typepad.com/6p010536b2fa33970c/ Lightkeeper

    It seems as if every time I try to post hyperlinks, my comment gets held (as spam). So I will just list some very good sources:
    B’Tselem
    Jewish Voices
    J Street
    DN!
    December18th

  • http://profile.typepad.com/6p010536b2fa33970c/ Lightkeeper

    Sergei, thanks for your comments. I had never thought of it that way. It makes the Zionist position easier to understand. However, I’m not sure exactly what you mean by:
    ‘despite the clear and unmistakable calls for oppression, persecution, genocide, etc., the overwhelming majority of people in the West side with those who want the Jews destroyed.’
    I know that there is a lot of anti-semitism in the Arab world, but I always thought that it was a product of Zionism. I thought thats why so many Jews felt safe going to the Middle East when all of Europe seemed inflamed against them.

  • cenoxo

    It seems as if every time I try to post hyperlinks, my comment gets held (as spam).
    The BAG can correct me if I’m wrong, but I think any single BnN comment is limited to posting 4 links maximum (due to TypePad’s anti-spam filters). Try 4 links or less, and disperse them throughout the text of your comment.
    BAGman, can this limit be increased?

  • http://www.bagnewsnotes.com Michael (The BAG)

    Cenoxo,
    I can check with Typepad on that number. I think people have successfully posted more than that, though. As I recommend whenever anyone emails me with a posting problem, please send me the comment and I’ll post it from my end. Sorry for the hassle. Whenever I turn off the “captcha” system, the spam messages start to roll.

  • http://profile.typepad.com/6p010536554b68970c/ DW

    One (me) is left wondering why the Israelis want to create yet another generation of Palestinians who hate them. The score is 500 to 5 last I read.
    How is this at all in Israel’s best interest, really? Killing people does not generate anything but hatred.

  • http://profile.typepad.com/6p010536b2fa33970c/ Lightkeeper

    I think because Israel truly believes that all of historic Palestine belongs to it – not least because they are the chosen people and it was promised to them in a book written thousands of years ago with unknown and unverifiable authors.
    I really think this is Israel’s ultimate goal. How else to make sense of Israel’s ongoing actions? Some Israeli’s don’t even mask this – but the media projection is one of ‘defense’ and ’security,’ of course…

  • cenoxo

    …because Israel truly believes that all of historic Palestine belongs to it – not least because they are the chosen people and it was promised to them in a book written thousands of years ago with unknown and unverifiable authors.
    The ultimate boundaries of the Land of Israel — AKA historical ‘Palestine’ — are not precisely clear in the Old Testament, but many Jews (and Christians) believe that the western edge is set by the Nile River, and the eastern edge by the Euphrates. This is based in part on G_d’s promise to Abraham in Genesis 15:18-21 (New International Version):

    On that day the LORD made a covenant with Abram and said, “To your descendants I give this land, from the river of Egypt to the great river, the Euphrates – the land of the Kenites, Kenizzites, Kadmonites, Hittites, Perizzites, Rephaites, Amorites, Canaanites, Girgashites and Jebusites.”

    Egypt, Jordan, Saudi Arabia, Lebanon, Syria, Iraq, Iran, and today’s Palestinians — not to mention other interested land holders — have been known to contest this will, however.

  • http://theforgottenwar.blogspot.com Sergei Andropov

    “I’m not sure exactly what you mean by…”
    I mean the international community sides with the Arabs.
    “I know that there is a lot of anti-semitism in the Arab world, but I always thought that it was a product of Zionism.”
    Well, at first, it was just the general fear and dislike of the “other” that pervaded most, if not all, societies until relatively recently. It began in earnest with Zionism, but the distinction between Zionist and Jew has since been erased, and the phenomenon now exists independently of the situation in the Cisjordan. Here is an example of how indiscriminate the propaganda is (its even freakier in Persian), and here is a slightly more intellectually rigorous version of the same (note that because it is in Arabic, I cannot vouch for the translation’s veracity).
    “I thought thats why so many Jews felt safe going to the Middle East when all of Europe seemed inflamed against them.”
    They went to the Cisjordan because it was the land of their forefathers. The Edict of Religious Toleration issued by the Sultan in 1844 (at the behest of Europeans concerned about Ottoman Christians) was merely an added benefit.

  • http://theforgottenwar.blogspot.com Sergei Andropov

    “many Jews (and Christians) believe that the western edge is set by the Nile River, and the eastern edge by the Euphrates.”
    The only people whom I have ever heard express that are anti-Zionists. The most extreme Zionist definition I have ever heard is the boundaries of the Kingdom of David.

  • http://profile.typepad.com/6p010536b2fa33970c/ Lightkeeper

    Sergei, that woman from the Iranian show sounds insane. And…kinda North Korean with that high-pitched tone.
    > ‘I mean the international community sides with the Arabs.’
    No offence, but I don’t see no international community siding with the Arabs. If anything they have bought out the Arabs (hello, Hosni Mubarak), and look the other way as Palestine continues to be erased.

  • jtfromBC

    > the international community sides with the Arabs.
    You’ve definitely correct, Sergei !
    Loving dictatorial regimes and our friends in Israeli, the USA discriminates only on the size of its military gifts, interesting to follow the money and how much is paid to various pipers, of course all in the name of “bringing democracy to the ME or “fighting the so called war on terrorism”.
    “The military package announced on July 30 includes $30 billion in assistance to Israel over 10 years — an increase of about 25 percent on previous spending — to maintain what the State Department called Israel’s “military edge.”
    There will $13 billion over a similar period for Egypt. It also includes arms sales to Saudi Arabia and other Arab Gulf states. Rice did not put a figure on those, but reports said they could be worth up to $20 billion, including missile-defense systems and ships.”
    -July 31, 2007 (RFE/RL) — U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice and Defense Secretary Robert Gates have held talks in Egypt and extended offers of military aid to Arab countries and Israel
    http://www.rferl.org/content/article/1077894.html

  • cenoxo

    cenoxo: …many Jews (and Christians) believe that the western edge is set by the Nile River, and the eastern edge by the Euphrates.
    Sergei Andropov: The only people whom I have ever heard express that are anti-Zionists. The most extreme Zionist definition I have ever heard is the boundaries of the Kingdom of David.”
    The misconceptions surrounding the concept of Greater Israel are explained in detail in Daniel Pipes’ March 1994 Middle East Quarterly article, Imperial Israel: The Nile-to-Euphrates Calumny.
    Perceptions are often stronger than reality, however, as BnN frequently demonstrates.

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